Rajeev Madhavan, founding partner at Clear Ventures, shares his career as a 3x successful entrepreneur. He shows how an entrepreneur changes his skeptical view and convinces him in 20 minutes.
Rajeev Madhavan, founding partner at Clear Ventures, shares his career as a 3x successful entrepreneur. He shows how an entrepreneur changes his skeptical view and convinces him in 20 minutes.
More details at http://podcast.sure.ventures
Rajeev Madhavan: [00:00:00] And remember in the nineties, when I was doing a startup early nineties, there were only very few in a non-Caucasian CEOs who had done their own startup. So, but in Silicon valley, clearly none of those stigmas challenges, shortage of money existed. You have the best system in the world in terms of both getting the advice, whether it's legal and wise, whether it's startup in wise, you have so many in the Reynosa have succeeded that the chances of you and knowing a few of them are way too high today
Gopi Rangan: than it used to be.
At the time I did those countries.
You are listening to the shore shot entrepreneur
podcast for founders, with ambitious ideas, venture capital investors and other early believers tell you relatable, insightful, and authentic stories [00:01:00] to help you realize your vision. Welcome to the shore shot. I am your host Gopi rung. In this episode, I talked to Rajiv motherland, Raji, and his partner, Chris rust founded clear ventures.
I've worked with them on many occasions over the years. It is a pleasure to have Rajiv on the podcast. In today's episode, we will talk to Rajeev about his journey as a successful serial entrepreneur and how he transitioned to the venture capitals. His last company, he started as a startup in the Silicon valley and took it all the way to IPO.
He has been an angel investor, an active angel investor for many years, and then eventually decided to start a new venture capital forum, clear ventures. We will specifically talk about how entrepreneurs have just one chance to win the support of VCs. Rajiv talks to us about how a negative opinion he held was changed [00:02:00] in 20 minutes.
Welcome to the short shot entrepreneur Rajiv. Tell us about yourself.
Rajeev Madhavan: One of the
lucky few who have gone and come to do my grad school in north America, came to Canada and then came to Silicon valley. And, you know, at the very beginning and offset and Silicon valley within a year, year and a half of me working in Silicon valley, I moved to doing startups.
So
since 91,
I have done three startups. The first was a company in chip design. Second, a third was the chip design software company. Two of the men died and one was a good sexist. With cadence as well. So, you know, I grew up in the balls of Silicon valley doing startups, uh, enjoyed the fact that only in displays, can you find this kind of talent, this kind of diverse population, this kind of combination of Rancho capital combination of great angels and great people who [00:03:00] actually give you the advice you need at the right time.
Obviously you have experience of getting the other side as well, which is part and parcel of what you need to do, which is, you know, people who are more about themselves rather than about the company and about forming and letting the company succeed. But it's been a great experience since 91 to now 2019, right?
I mean, 2020, where it's been a great experience with a lots of downtime. And interesting. You almost all my startups that have succeeded have happened right after the downturn.
So,
because I know this is the time. No doubt about it.
Gopi Rangan: It's great that you see that opportunity. I understand that it's not an easy time for a lot of people right now, but hopefully this creates new opportunities for all of us. I want to ask you a question about an event or a time or someone that had a huge impact on you and how did that happen?
Rajeev Madhavan: So to
me, you know, I mean, my [00:04:00] first I call my life as there are three people who have actually done that to me. My, my dad is obviously the one person who obviously. Believe that I could never do anything wrong. We have no DNA of a startup experience or wanting to do startups in my life. Right. It was actually a pessimist in a tunnel, this and this to me, trying to do a startup, et cetera.
I mean, I remember when I first left my job at Cayden's actually, then I left from being out her cadence. She called me and said, why are you changing jobs in our 10,000 company person, company to 800 people? And then I joined my myself, like company called logic question. She told everybody. He doesn't know how to keep a job.
He just got, keep
a job. That's what she had told everybody. And
at that time, my dad was suddenly the influence of saying, look, if you believe in it and do it. So after my third company Magnum went public, when there was an article which was published in India, that was when she. [00:05:00] Called me and said, okay, you've done something in your life.
You know, that's how much intrepreneurial DNA we had in our family. We had absolutely none whatsoever. So having somebody who was giving them encouragement was important. My second person in my life was a professor that I had in my fourth year. I was one of those students who posted in life, never studied.
Huh? Just what is necessary to get to the next level. And, you know, as somebody who was set, my expectations differently told me I should do GRE told me I should do this, that, and, you know, threw me out of the class, but you know, asked me to come back and explain certain things. So it is having a professor like that.
Uh, his name was Dr. Savannah, but he just completely changed
my life. In terms of in the fourth year, having someone
Gopi Rangan: redirect you, uh, in an engineering school, Timely for me. And then in my first job, I had a manager at Rockne who was [00:06:00] stuck on me again, you know,
Rajeev Madhavan: I would go
Gopi Rangan: back to life. I was having fun and got my first job and then bought all these and all those kinds of.
Rajeev Madhavan: And doing my work, but not doing anything
Gopi Rangan: super heavy duty.
Rajeev Madhavan: And, you know, during April fool's joke that was played, um,
Gopi Rangan: and being out, you know, everybody used to turn down your VAX BMS systems and you know, my machine sort of stolen my account was stolen. And, you know, then everybody would come and say, happy April, fool's stay to you.
I wanted to respond to everybody. I broke into the unit system and brought
Rajeev Madhavan: essentially the whole system down.
Gopi Rangan: And it brought me to my, uh, to his office and he told me,
Rajeev Madhavan: you know, I don't see the same
Gopi Rangan: regime mother and I'd work. Uh, you know,
Rajeev Madhavan: who had that assessed to want to attack back and want to work.
Gopi Rangan: And it send me a real clear message and
Rajeev Madhavan: having him
Gopi Rangan: there.
Uh, these are all people in your life that if you think about [00:07:00] it changed you quite dramatically of what he did.
Rajeev Madhavan: And lastly, there was somebody else who did it, what that was more coincidental. The
Gopi Rangan: founder of cadence, Jim Solomon, you know, I was in a plane with him. I was working on a new
Rajeev Madhavan: product and he called me to come to the first class.
That's my first class
Gopi Rangan: that I had to be. We're going to have the semiconductor. Uh, which is where I'm going to be. My one of my first customers in Florida, and I asked him, you
Rajeev Madhavan: know, what would you have done differently at cadence? And he said, this new antelope product
Gopi Rangan: you're working on, I probably would have done it as a startup.
And what went through my mind was, why am I here? Why am I not doing a startup, but
Rajeev Madhavan: sort of set that wave of thought process in me and then the clock would not be done back, basically. That is what made me leave. I had no other entrepreneurial DNA, as I told you. So that was the last portion of the journey, but that was more an
Gopi Rangan: incidental experience rather than a.
You know, somebody wanting to do that, he spoke
Rajeev Madhavan: [00:08:00] too much and it kind of
Gopi Rangan: made me realize I should be doing a of, and that's what made me leave and do a startup. So these are the people
Rajeev Madhavan: who I would say having incidental in making
Gopi Rangan: career decisions that kind of led me into doing stuff. Fascinating. I see the right place, right time, right?
Question that provokes your thought and sets you on a path. But I also see the professor and the manager that they seem to be people who believed in you and saw a lot more potential and helped you realize that. Very interestingly, your dad and mom, the dynamics between the two. Your dad seems to have been this eternal optimist who believed in you that you could do anything and your mom was this opposite.
She brought this different kind of perspective, and I understand where she comes from. And
Rajeev Madhavan: sustainably, she's the one who had any capable,
Gopi Rangan: managing money, frankly, speaking as a startup because she, you know, had a lot of, uh, she was like a landlord and, uh, apartments that she had given at home. Right. And my dad [00:09:00] basically used to be the guy who spends, if you ask him for money, you would get it, my mom, but, you know, I sort of sit
Rajeev Madhavan: back and I think of it and I go back and
Gopi Rangan: I say, it's
Rajeev Madhavan: more of her experience of being.
Frugal stingy and managing money that I clearly needed in the
Gopi Rangan: latter half of my startup life. Right. Then that's when you realize, uh, Y you know, some of the things that she did, that they are absolutely essential. And I had no idea of that at that point. Right. I mean, it was like, uh, basically go to that.
They're trying to get something. My mother was a no go fly. So hopefully we're getting into things, but you know,
Rajeev Madhavan: as you sit back and you think about it, she was
Gopi Rangan: the reason why we no life in some sense, because she was the one who saved the
Rajeev Madhavan: money. And then my dad gave every check
Gopi Rangan: to her and she managed it and did a fantastic job of managing it through her life.
So she was the practical person. You made a transition yourself. Like you are a successful entrepreneur, three [00:10:00] startups, all successful. You took all the way from beginning to IPO and you are the public company CEO for many, many years. And then you switch to the venture side. Although you did have a lot of investment experience when you've made many investments, Clare ventures was the firm that you formed and you're the founder of the farm.
How was the transition from switching from an entrepreneur to venture capitalist?
Rajeev Madhavan: So, this is sort of in, in 98, when I had my first
Gopi Rangan: exit, I started investing in startups as an angel. I did 28 investments between
Rajeev Madhavan: 98 and 2012. And part of why I did
Gopi Rangan: those in messenger was not because of, uh, you know, like I really, uh, wanted to become
Rajeev Madhavan: a VC or an investor.
Part of it was because I loved hearing those technical
Gopi Rangan: pitches from
Rajeev Madhavan: the end to date. I mean, as a VC learning from the best people in a particular field is the best part of this job. I mean, you can not have anybody better than the
Gopi Rangan: [00:11:00] persons we are meeting with,
Rajeev Madhavan: educate you on what a particular field is all about.
Right? I mean, so that is the best than the most happiest thing. And I needed that while I was doing magma, mainly because, you know, as a public company, uh, with lawyers, accountants, and we also had some big lawsuits, et cetera, I was spending time with people who are not the most fun or the most eternal pessimists.
And you need to meet these optimistic counterbalance. So I used to spend Saturdays spending time with startups as a way to rejuvenate myself. Like, you know, I mean,
Gopi Rangan: essentially have these founders come home, I would meet one or two of
Rajeev Madhavan: them every
Gopi Rangan: week. And spend some time, but I'm in downloads, I'm in customer sites icon, but if I'm in town and I'm spending time
Rajeev Madhavan: more as a distraction for my day-to-day, it's a mistake.
Gopi Rangan: So I'll meet people that you end up with. I mean, your engineering organization. So I made sure magma was not that way, but
Rajeev Madhavan: the rest of the organizations tend to be that way, especially.
Gopi Rangan: [00:12:00] For the amount of legal and past IPO, the Sarbanes-Oxley et cetera, the lawyers and accountants,
Rajeev Madhavan: all of them are doing a very qualified job or nonetheless is always a pessimistic job that, uh, they will this operating on.
So this wasn't balanced for me. And I had done a lot of investment as I moved to VC. I can tell you the best thing. Is learning from the best technologists that can explain a
Gopi Rangan: particular
Rajeev Madhavan: technology to you. And in many cases you do find technologists who are driven to a particular passion to execute in a particular product or a particular
Gopi Rangan: idea.
And
Rajeev Madhavan: their passion drives an OTT. You and hopefully your energy and trying to give them midwives
Gopi Rangan: drives. In the right direction, too.
Rajeev Madhavan: You know, there are lots of great things that are a lot of bad things as well, but fundamentally, uh, you know, it is one of those businesses where the ability to learn certain new things from the best in the world in that
Gopi Rangan: particular field is a [00:13:00] super exciting experience that you can not get in anything, but.
Is it challenging for you sometimes when you see that your portfolio company, founders, CEOs, and the executive management team, you know exactly what they need to do. And if you were in their shoes, you knew you would do certain things, a few steps that you would take as an entrepreneur. I can imagine that you have the urge.
Tell them what to do, or even roll up your sleeves and get into the game. And you love being in the middle of the arena. And you've done that for so many years. How do you hold back? And is it a challenge for you to hold back and let them play the game while you're the coach on the sideline?
Rajeev Madhavan: So this is, uh, you know, the first two, three years, that kind of intrepreneurs,
Gopi Rangan: I've picked two, as they ended up in nowhere I
Rajeev Madhavan: picked today, I've lost three different.
The first two or three years when I picked, I mean, it's, I always give this
Gopi Rangan: example, uh, it's almost like a new professor being minted at a particular school. They use Scott a few PhDs. They
Rajeev Madhavan: look for the super coolest technical [00:14:00] idea loans where technology dominated
Gopi Rangan: 80% of the market, not the team or the
Rajeev Madhavan: market, right.
The technology. And though just the market was the decision
Gopi Rangan: point that I had made much of my decision. You assume that the
Rajeev Madhavan: technologies will put us out in Seoul, you assume that you work hard and you assume that he has some business acumen in himself
Gopi Rangan: and all three of those assumptions have been, you know, not true and probably 60% of the cases.
Rajeev Madhavan: So essentially I'm more of myself to understand that 40% of all of the decision is about the bus at the state seed and series a investments. Uh, obviously if the market is. And if you don't believe in the market, it could be the most Superman technologist, Superman, executioner, he or she is going to fail.
So market is number one and technologist is number two, and it probably was technology number one and market as a secondary play that I used to look at. So I had marked myself and [00:15:00] this morphing is because. You know, very quickly you realize in the VC business that much as you feel like you could do something, you cannot do anything.
You're just a coach. You
Gopi Rangan: can tell them what it is and,
Rajeev Madhavan: and you see them make mistakes and the blood pressure just keeps going up for you. It never really has anything that
Gopi Rangan: you can do. You can just tell them and
Rajeev Madhavan: keep telling them you need founders. Well, billing to look at opposing viewpoints, to understand what are the issues and to learn from these issues.
Then, you know, kind of go ahead. And I absolutely want people who tells me that, Hey, you're full of therapy. You really don't understand it. I absolutely enjoy working with those people. But the fundamental thing that needs to happen in a startup is you need an interpreneur. Who's very, super excited about his idea, but also as the deputy.
Acumen and the business acumen to be able to execute it or to bring in the right people into the team to execute it. So you realize that as you make that transition from the coach, I think I was [00:16:00] less of a coach earlier on than today. I mean, today it's a hundred percent coaching job, but picking the players is all right at the very beginning.
That's the single best decision I can make.
Gopi Rangan: When you look at an opportunity, let's assume let's take an example of a startup that you decided to back at a moment when no one else believes in the idea, how do you choose to get behind the entrepreneur and support them? Can you give an example of one situation?
Rajeev Madhavan: So I would give you one email. I actually did the opposite. I mean, I met with a company called ed Marcy. It's a blue chip company and David and Massoud are known to me previously.
Gopi Rangan: I know they also knew a lawyer that I knew well, but Masuda was Qualcomm. And that there was before that. And as an EDM vendor, we have talked to these people all before.
Rajeev Madhavan: So I met with them. And the first line I told them is more than likely I'm not going to invest in your company because I'm not currently
Gopi Rangan: looking at semiconductor startups
Rajeev Madhavan: and [00:17:00] boy in 45 minutes later, I was a fool. I think the market is phenomenal. The team, I mean, this has basically had, I think, four out of the top, the first 20 people.
So getting the chip done was not an uncertainty. Right. It'll get done. And there was no questions whatsoever about that theme. The quality was never an issue. The ability to get it done was not an issue with the market in terms of the IOT markets, the headphones, uh, you know, like I'm using an airport today, right.
In an airport, or you need to put it into the charging device and plug the charging device in here. I don't need that. You can charge it with a, with aura, like can just leave it on my table and it's getting chocked. I know, fundamentally changing the way we look at batteries. It was crystal clear to me around we wanted to lead it, but you know, somebody else jumped on it.
The next day I met with them
Gopi Rangan: the previous week, give them a term [00:18:00] sheet. Then
Rajeev Madhavan: it became kind of a fist
Gopi Rangan: flights of trying to get our way back into this. But we managed to do that with David and
Rajeev Madhavan: we funded. So this is where, meaning those kinds of founders who can explain the technology and. Uh, is one of the very unique things that happens with the spiel.
Gopi Rangan: And I thought I would not fund it going into that meat. So in this case, it looks like you knew the founders, you had a lot of respect for them, but you had a negative disposition even before going into the meeting and you didn't think that you were going to move forward, but during that meeting, they changed their mind and they converted a non-believer to a believer.
Is that correct?
Rajeev Madhavan: Uh, you know, I mean, it's, it's not necessarily a hundred percent common, but out of the 18 companies, we have done three U a decisions like that, where, you know, 20, 30 minutes into it, you're looking at it and you're saying, God, we got to do this. And these are for a seed stage company [00:19:00] where all this is ideas on, on it.
Wasn't said sometimes though, there's not even a. PowerPoint slide is just them explaining it to you on a whiteboard. And I think, you know, for me, that is paradise that I totally enjoy. I know a lot of VCs on side of the road goes down the how beautiful a presentation it is. I, on the other hand, you know, one that technologists do show me why he or she.
Build a team build a product. And obviously the market is something that we have to do our
Gopi Rangan: religions on, uh, and make
Rajeev Madhavan: sure that the market exists. So this is sort of the only two things you're going to look at at the seed stage at the seed stage. All you can look at, uh, which is where, you know, 95% of our investments are.
All you have is the technologists and some aspects of the market definition that we can go and your all cells and get a drive to a conviction to do the
Gopi Rangan: investments. So in this
Rajeev Madhavan: early stage funding [00:20:00] business, this isn't a very important thing that I've learned
Gopi Rangan: as I transitioned myself into. I see a thread here.
Your, what you say is that you are open to new ideas and you want to be challenged and it's okay to prove you wrong. And you really enjoy the process. Are there situations where it takes more than one meeting to convince?
Rajeev Madhavan: Well, even if, uh, you know, 45 minutes, we decided we want
Gopi Rangan: to do there is obviously subsequent work that is done, which is, you know, making sure you're doing that often.
So on the people, you know, what skeletons do they have, and I'm not worried about having some skeletons, but. Do the diligence that needs to happen. You need to check her market. You need to realize that there may be others who are already beginning to do so, but you know, more than ever more than ever, then it's just making sure that your condition is right.
And that this is a right problem that this company could take to be [00:21:00] successful is what you're trying to prove. So the spark was lit, but you still needed to find the spark, build the flame and see if there was a clear potential before you
Rajeev Madhavan: after that.
Gopi Rangan: Um, but it does take a lot of meetings and spending time with the founders to make that happen.
What if the spark doesn't happen in the first meeting, do you typically walk away? I think that's
Rajeev Madhavan: quite unlikely that you would get a second chance because the reality is this. We see in lot of companies in Silicon valley, right? So if you ever got to take the number of companies we have seen, the first meeting is very,
Gopi Rangan: very important.
Right. I mean, so going through that meeting and
Rajeev Madhavan: understanding it, if there was no spark at that time, and you're not bought into the market, chances are very low that you would actually
Gopi Rangan: come around to liking it in subsequent meetings. And this, by the way, it's not just me. I think, you know, when bitch to most [00:22:00] VCs, if you're not having a first meeting, which is very successful
Rajeev Madhavan: in Iran zone you where they may come back and do it in subsequent round because you have executed.
But in that same round, it
Gopi Rangan: is actually a much more diverse. Uh, to get the ball moving in my case, it's very, very difficult to do that. So entrepreneurs have one chance to make a good impression on the first meeting.
Rajeev Madhavan: Oh, you know, I, I don't think it's, it's, it's a stress on the, on the first meeting, as
Gopi Rangan: much as you know, the technology that is, and is that the right market, right?
Rajeev Madhavan: They just have to go. But having said that, I have to tell you, I mean, there are people who have come
Gopi Rangan: with them or not. Yes. To me after that, Dumb and said, yeah, you pointed out these issues. We didn't believe it. We tried it and now we have to do something new and you know, there's no penalty for somebody trying something that actually shows that you're an injured or no.
Or you have to keep doing that until you succeed. So
Rajeev Madhavan: you have to know what is right. And you have to take the input on the market. [00:23:00] And the market has spilled a school. You know, the ability of the entrepreneur to be able to read a little bit into it will be nice though. I have to give you in my own second company, I had been our 35 venture firms,
Gopi Rangan: which said no to me and Amber and
Rajeev Madhavan: I did not listen.
I raised 750 K from 50 private investors. That is what
Gopi Rangan: it was all about. Right. It was all sorts of, uh, private investors with $10,000, $50,000 investment in. And he created a technology.
Rajeev Madhavan: So I have to give that advice to the founders that, you know, go with your conviction. And if you are absolutely believing in it, any of us in ensemble Rodo believes we are good investors,
Gopi Rangan: uh, all idiots, when it comes to in front of your conviction and your skills, it takes a lot of fortitude to keep pitching to investors like you.
Did you like this? Be that resilient in an entrepreneur?
Rajeev Madhavan: Yeah. In the case of [00:24:00] an but because I had Gordon bell on
Gopi Rangan: my board of directors, you know, Gordon was a fax BDB tech, and I forgot a deck, obviously that was the king of computing at that time. And he had just left that deck. I could get meetings everywhere.
I mean, you would send out an email to
Rajeev Madhavan: XYZ on the side of the road and just for deference for Gordon, they would take the meeting and we were going up against a synopsis and entrenched market. Uh, with just done an IPO and here's, you know, bunch of guys coming in and saying, dude, we tend to a hundred times faster than synopsis and found
Gopi Rangan: us
Rajeev Madhavan: it wasn't 3000 in the company.
So it was David versus Goliath. We excrete it was actually, this is where a sanding really did not understand that market really needed somebody who could make a chip design
Gopi Rangan: a time come down by 10 to 20 X, which is what happened. Literally got acquired for $280 [00:25:00] million in a year and a half after that stage of trying to raise money, the technology.
But after we had a demo and a product, you know, it was pretty quick in terms of what we could achieve, but, you know, uh,
Rajeev Madhavan: conveying such technologies, uh, capabilities and market potential was very, very difficult. Again, that is part and parcel of what needs to be done by an endocrinologist, but. Classic example of a team which stood by did not take salary, et cetera, whatever conviction and stayed and won against the Goliath, essentially, uh, deliberating
Gopi Rangan: on something
Rajeev Madhavan: that seemed impossible at the very beginning and, and helped them win very quickly to an exit.
Right. What are we saying? I'm Salvadoran doesn't really matter at the end of it. It's the conviction of the entrepreneur, you know, if you believe in it, uh, and are really you're taking the right trade-off, uh, and that is where life is [00:26:00] difficult, right? Digging those straight offs requires family support because I was not taking
Gopi Rangan: any money while I was putting money and was on a second
Rajeev Madhavan: mortgage when I was at the ambulate.
So that is a level of conviction. Over the top of what needs to be achieved.
Gopi Rangan: You had extreme diversion to your startup. You shared a, quite a bit of topics here. You started with people who influenced you and unleashed a lot of potential in you starting with your dad, your mom, professor, your manager, the founder of cadence.
And you talked about transition from. Being an entrepreneur angel investor to a full-time venture capital investor. And you drill down on specific things that you look for in an entrepreneur, especially people who can prove you wrong in a short period of time, possibly in one meeting, maybe not more than that, that process of opening your eyes to something new.
You really enjoy going through that process with an entrepreneur. And you, you do have a lot of faith in these entrepreneurs because. They are the masters of their field and [00:27:00] they know a lot, lot more than anybody else on the planet on that topic. This is a lot to cover. I'm sure we can spend a lot more time and we can keep talking about it.
And that's why I keep coming back to you. And I learned a lot from your experience. Let's switch to what you do outside of work. Can you talk about, um, your involvement in a community activity that you're passionate.
But, uh, one of them, which I'm very proud of what I've done is, is for example, chat bot, which feeds several million kids a day in India. These are empowers kids who come to school only for the. Or they bring their sisters and everyone in the program. But the main program that the government has put in India does not meet any requirement of nutritious meal for the kids.
So this is a system which has been our, that kitchens. I think, you know, if you look at, actually look at their kitchens on YouTube or you'll be blown away [00:28:00] using signs to solve the issue. Those have a particularly soft, uh, you know, insurance for a lot of, uh, intrepreneurs I'm sure. Instead of going badly, so they have done great.
Uh, so there are a couple of these programs that I am, my wife does get involved, uh, was involved with UCLA and the university had to make a transition was on the road for awhile. When you had to make a transition from, you know, purely funded by uncle Sam to having to raise endowments, to actually get them.
So
Rajeev Madhavan: that, you know, there are a couple of social, uh,
Gopi Rangan: charitable programs. I'm probably 10 years away from co-opting something on my own and running, uh, and doing it. Full-time, uh, 10 to 15 years ago, uh, from now I could see myself just doing that. It's great to see that you make time for these activities. I'm going to stay close and watch to see what you unleash in 10 to 15 years when you are ready for that.
Thank you for listening [00:29:00] to the shore shot entrepreneur. I hope you enjoyed listening to real life stories about early believers, supporting ambitious entrepreneurs. Please subscribe to the podcast and post a review. Your comments will help other entrepreneurs find this podcast. I look forward to catching you at the next episode. .